Thanks Phil, I just noticed that there was a typo in my message; the end of the last sentence of the second paragraph should read "...they may conclude (with some justification) that this *code* is not for them." But I think that you understood that... Cheers, Michel On 01/05/13 14:11, Cantino, Philip wrote: > Dear CPN members, > > In light of Michel's concerns, let's hold off on voting for a few days > to give ourselves time to discuss these issues. > > Phil > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:05 AM, Michel Laurin wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I am sorry that I did not have time to look at this text earlier. >> I have problems with the formulation for apomorphy-based clades, in >> which "synapomorphic with" was omitted of some kinds of allowed >> definitions. This is a mistake in my opinion because it leaves >> ambiguity; often, convergent apomorphies are indistinguishable from >> synapomorphic ones. So "synapomorphic" MUST be present in such kinds >> of definitions. >> >> The removal of minimal and maximal clades defined based on >> extinct taxa is a big mistake, in my opinion. These are the kinds of >> clades that paleontologists deal with most of the time, and they may >> conclude (with some justification) that this clade is not for them. >> >> Thust, for now, I vote against this amendment, although I am in >> favor of the rest of it. But I would like to see these issues fixed >> before I approve the changes. >> >> See the attached text for annotations showing where exactly the >> problems are. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Michel >> >> On 01/05/13 00:54, Cantino, Philip wrote: >>> Dear CPN members, >>> >>> There has been little discussion of the proposed revisions to Note >>> 9.3.1, so I'm calling a vote on it. The version I am asking you to >>> vote on is the one I sent yesterday, which incorporates responses to >>> the two points David M. raised. It is attached again to this >>> message. A simple Yes (to approve) or No (to reject) is all that is >>> needed. Please send your vote to the listserv, not to me personally. >>> >>> Please try to vote by the end of the day this Friday, but if that >>> schedule is too tight for some of you, let me know and I'll extend >>> it a few days. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> *From: *"Cantino, Philip" < cantino at ohio.edu <mailto: cantino at ohio.edu >> >>>> *Subject: **Re: [CPN] proposed revisions of Note 9.3.1* >>>> *Date: *April 29, 2013 1:00:59 PM EDT >>>> *To: *Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature < cpn at listserv.ohio.edu >>>> <mailto: cpn at listserv.ohio.edu >> >>>> >>>> Dear CPN members, >>>> >>>> Kevin and I discussed the specific suggestions made by David >>>> (copied below). >>>> >>>> 1) Rather than replacing "synapomorphy" with "autapomorphy" in the >>>> wording of apomorphy-based definition, as David proposed, we think >>>> that it should be replaced with "apomorphy", and that the same >>>> change be made in the wording of the apomorphy-modified crown clade >>>> definition. Although David is right that an apomorphy of a clade >>>> is an autapomorphy when viewed in relation to other clades (the >>>> outgroups), it is a synapomorphy of the members of the clade being >>>> named, which is why we used the term synapomorphy. However, given >>>> that it can be viewed either way, the term "apomorphy" is clearer. >>>> >>>> 2) We agree with David's suggestion that "and" be changed to "or" >>>> in the definition of a total clade in Art. 2.2. >>>> >>>> I am attaching a new version of the proposed changes that >>>> incorporates these new modifications. >>>> >>>> David, thank you for your careful reading of the proposal. >>>> >>>> Does anyone else have any comments? Tomorrow is the day I said I >>>> would call for a vote if there was no active discussion. >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 25, 2013, at 5:35 PM, David Marjanovic wrote: >>>> > ================== >>>> > >>>> > Concrete points about the current proposal: >>>> > >>>> > I am particularly happy about the replacement of "most/least >>>> inclusive" by "largest/smallest". The former are unambigous, but >>>> sound abstract enough that -- for a long time -- they managed to >>>> confuse me anyway. >>>> > >>>> > In the proposal to change the definition of "apomorphy-based >>>> clade", replace "synapomorphy" by "autapomorphy" (twice). Hennig >>>> liked inventing terminology, and he wanted to express every >>>> possible concept in a single word made from Greek components; >>>> therefore _one_ clade has autapomorphies (auto- = "self") while >>>> _two_ sister-groups (or more in case of a hard polytomy) have >>>> synapomorphies (syn- = "together"); the synapomorphies of two >>>> sister-groups are automatically autapomorphies of the smallest >>>> clade they form together, which makes the terms redundant in many >>>> cases, but still, there they are, and one clade can't have >>>> _syn_apomorphies together with just itself. -- The use of >>>> "apomorphy" in that section is correct; that term just means >>>> "derived character state" without saying derived relative to what. >>>> > >>>> > By using "and" in strategic places, the proposal to change the >>>> last point of Article 2.2 implies that total clades must contain >>>> entire species (even if they contain other organisms in addition). >>>> In turn, this implies that there cannot be clades within a species. >>>> This is correct under Hennig's species concept, but not under >>>> whatever concepts the ancestor worshippers think they use. Simply >>>> use "or" like in the proposal to change the preceding point (the >>>> one about crown clades). >>>> > >>>> >>>>
>>>> CPN mailing list >>>> CPN at listserv.ohio.edu <mailto: CPN at listserv.ohio.edu > >>>> http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> CPN mailing list >>> CPN at listserv.ohio.edu >>> http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn >> >> >> -- >> Michel Laurin >> UMR 7207 >> Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle >> Batiment de Géologie >> Case postale 48 >> 43 rue Buffon >> F-75231 Paris cedex 05 >> FRANCE >> http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php >> <Note 9.3.1 min max terminiology >> final2.doc>_______________________________________________ >> CPN mailing list >> CPN at listserv.ohio.edu <mailto: CPN at listserv.ohio.edu > >> http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn > > > >
> CPN mailing list > CPN at listserv.ohio.edu > http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn -- Michel Laurin UMR 7207 Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle Batiment de Géologie Case postale 48 43 rue Buffon F-75231 Paris cedex 05 FRANCE http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://listserv.ohio.edu/pipermail/cpn/attachments/20130501/72187270/attachment.html
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