I also vote in favor of the proposed changes.<br><br>All the best, <br><br>Walter<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Cantino, Philip <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu" target="_blank">cantino@ohio.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear CPN members,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Only five of us have voted on the set of proposed changes I sent the listserv on Monday (attached again to this message). �I suggested today as the deadline, but since less than half the committee has voted, this was clearly insufficient time. �Please
send your vote by next Tuesday (Nov. 6), election day here in the U.S. �The following people have NOT yet voted: Anderson, Andres, Gauthier, Joyce, Marjanovic, Olmstead, and Tank.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium">"Cantino, Philip" <<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu" target="_blank">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium">October 29, 2012 11:19:46 AM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium">Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] next set of CBM-related proposals</b><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div><font>
<div>Folks,<br>
<br>
This is a worthwhile discussion that should definitely be continued, but I realize now that I made a mistake in even including the glossary definition of Taxon in this round of voting.� This was the one entry in David's Sept. 29 set of comments that I suggested
we postpone because it will take a while to work through the many uses of the term "taxon" in the code.� In my Oct. 24 message in which I inserted replies to David's comments, I noted that we agreed to defer voting on the glossary definition of Taxon---but
I unfortunately forgot to remove this item from the list of changes that we are voting on right now.� My apologies for the confusion!<br>
<br>
The attached document is identical to the one I sent you on Friday except that I have deleted the glossary definition of Taxon as one that we are voting on at this time.� I am not trying to suppress discussion of this item.� We will return to this and related
changes in the code (and also revision of Art. 21), but after many months of discussion, I think it is best that we vote on the several changes that no one has expressed disagreement about.�
<br>
<br>
I suggested on Friday that we call a vote on this set of changes today if there were no comments by Sunday and if no one objected to this schedule.� No one has objected to the schedule, and the only comments are on the glossary definition of Taxon, so let's
please vote on the other changes (attached).� Please send your vote to this listserv by this Friday (Nov. 2).� [If someone feels this is insufficient time in which to vote, please say so, but we have been discussing the CBM proposal for months.]<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div><font>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Oct 29, 2012, at 10:56 AM, de Queiroz, Kevin wrote:<br>
<br>
> When it comes to the definition of "clade", it's a bit over-simplified to declare that other people are simply wrong.� They would argue that the definition of "clade" is "an ancestral _species_ and all of its descendants".� Moreover, some of them might also
argue that it is useful to distinguish terminologically between groups composed of an ancestor and all of its descendants that conform (more or less) to a nested hierarchical pattern (species, uniparental organisms) and those that do not (biparental organisms).<br>
> <br>
> Kevin<br>
> ________________________________________<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a>] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic [<a href="mailto:david.marjanovic@gmx.at" target="_blank">david.marjanovic@gmx.at</a>]<br>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 1:29 AM<br>
> To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature<br>
> Subject: Re: [CPN] next set of CBM-related proposals<br>
> <br>
>> I do not favor Mike's proposed� revision (of the definition of<br>
>> "taxon") for the following reason: some people view clades/higher<br>
>> taxa not as monophyletic groups of organisms but as monophyletic<br>
>> groups of species.<br>
> <br>
> They're wrong. "Clade" = "an ancestor and all its descendants", even if<br>
> that's a small part of a species or partially overlaps with one or<br>
> several species. The PhyloCode allows the naming of LITUs, as it should.<br>
> <br>
> Besides, under most species concepts, not only are "speciation" and<br>
> "cladogenesis" not synonyms*, but neither is even a subset of the other;<br>
> inevitably, then, clades will usually contain entire species and parts<br>
> of other species under those species concepts.<br>
> <br>
> * Although lots of people, even in the primary literature, use<br>
> "speciation" when they mean "cladogenesis". It's as if almost nobody<br>
> even knew the latter term.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> CPN mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
> <a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> CPN mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
> <a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
CPN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
CPN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dr. Walter Joyce<br>Institut f�r Geowissenschaften<br>University of T�bingen<br>Sigwartstr. 10<br>72070 T�bingen<br>+49 (0) 7071 - 2978930<br><a href="mailto:walter.joyce@uni-tuebingen.de" target="_blank">walter.joyce@uni-tuebingen.de</a><br>
<a href="http://www.geo.uni-tuebingen.de/arbeitsgruppen/palaeobiologie/biogeologie/people/dr-walter-g-joyce.html" target="_blank">http://www.geo.uni-tuebingen.de/arbeitsgruppen/palaeobiologie/biogeologie/people/dr-walter-g-joyce.html</a><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear CPN members,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Only five of us have voted on the set of proposed changes I sent the listserv on Monday (attached again to this message). �I suggested today as the deadline, but since less than half the committee has voted, this was clearly insufficient time. �Please
send your vote by next Tuesday (Nov. 6), election day here in the U.S. �The following people have NOT yet voted: Anderson, Andres, Gauthier, Joyce, Marjanovic, Olmstead, and Tank.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium">"Cantino, Philip" <<a href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu" target="_blank">cantino@ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium">October 29, 2012 11:19:46 AM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium">Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature <<a href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
<span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] next set of CBM-related proposals</b><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div><font>
<div>Folks,<br>
<br>
This is a worthwhile discussion that should definitely be continued, but I realize now that I made a mistake in even including the glossary definition of Taxon in this round of voting.� This was the one entry in David's Sept. 29 set of comments that I suggested
we postpone because it will take a while to work through the many uses of the term "taxon" in the code.� In my Oct. 24 message in which I inserted replies to David's comments, I noted that we agreed to defer voting on the glossary definition of Taxon---but
I unfortunately forgot to remove this item from the list of changes that we are voting on right now.� My apologies for the confusion!<br>
<br>
The attached document is identical to the one I sent you on Friday except that I have deleted the glossary definition of Taxon as one that we are voting on at this time.� I am not trying to suppress discussion of this item.� We will return to this and related
changes in the code (and also revision of Art. 21), but after many months of discussion, I think it is best that we vote on the several changes that no one has expressed disagreement about.�
<br>
<br>
I suggested on Friday that we call a vote on this set of changes today if there were no comments by Sunday and if no one objected to this schedule.� No one has objected to the schedule, and the only comments are on the glossary definition of Taxon, so let's
please vote on the other changes (attached).� Please send your vote to this listserv by this Friday (Nov. 2).� [If someone feels this is insufficient time in which to vote, please say so, but we have been discussing the CBM proposal for months.]<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div><font>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Oct 29, 2012, at 10:56 AM, de Queiroz, Kevin wrote:<br>
<br>
> When it comes to the definition of "clade", it's a bit over-simplified to declare that other people are simply wrong.� They would argue that the definition of "clade" is "an ancestral _species_ and all of its descendants".� Moreover, some of them might also
argue that it is useful to distinguish terminologically between groups composed of an ancestor and all of its descendants that conform (more or less) to a nested hierarchical pattern (species, uniparental organisms) and those that do not (biparental organisms).<br>
> <br>
> Kevin<br>
> ________________________________________<br>
> From: <a href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">cpn-bounces@listserv.ohio.edu</a>] On Behalf Of David Marjanovic [<a href="mailto:david.marjanovic@gmx.at" target="_blank">david.marjanovic@gmx.at</a>]<br>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 1:29 AM<br>
> To: Committee on Phylogenetic Nomenclature<br>
> Subject: Re: [CPN] next set of CBM-related proposals<br>
> <br>
>> I do not favor Mike's proposed� revision (of the definition of<br>
>> "taxon") for the following reason: some people view clades/higher<br>
>> taxa not as monophyletic groups of organisms but as monophyletic<br>
>> groups of species.<br>
> <br>
> They're wrong. "Clade" = "an ancestor and all its descendants", even if<br>
> that's a small part of a species or partially overlaps with one or<br>
> several species. The PhyloCode allows the naming of LITUs, as it should.<br>
> <br>
> Besides, under most species concepts, not only are "speciation" and<br>
> "cladogenesis" not synonyms*, but neither is even a subset of the other;<br>
> inevitably, then, clades will usually contain entire species and parts<br>
> of other species under those species concepts.<br>
> <br>
> * Although lots of people, even in the primary literature, use<br>
> "speciation" when they mean "cladogenesis". It's as if almost nobody<br>
> even knew the latter term.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> CPN mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
> <a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> CPN mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
> <a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</font></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
CPN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu" target="_blank">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
CPN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn" target="_blank">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dr. Walter Joyce<br>Institut f�r Geowissenschaften<br>University of T�bingen<br>Sigwartstr. 10<br>72070 T�bingen<br>+49 (0) 7071 - 2978930<br><a href="mailto:walter.joyce@uni-tuebingen.de" target="_blank">walter.joyce@uni-tuebingen.de</a><br>
<a href="http://www.geo.uni-tuebingen.de/arbeitsgruppen/palaeobiologie/biogeologie/people/dr-walter-g-joyce.html" target="_blank">http://www.geo.uni-tuebingen.de/arbeitsgruppen/palaeobiologie/biogeologie/people/dr-walter-g-joyce.html</a><br>