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        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Phil (and others),<br>
          <br>
          On 01/05/13 15:00, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
          type="cite">
          <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
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          <div style="">Dear Michel (and other CPN members),
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>In rewording Art. 2.2, we did not intend to imply that
              crown and total clades are the only types of clades recognized
              by the code. &nbsp;We proposed deleting the other three types of
              clades from the list because they are really kinds of
              definitions and names rather than categories of clades (see
              our comments in brackets immediately before Art 2 in the
              proposal). &nbsp;However, I can see how people would interpret our
              wording to mean that these are the only kinds of clades
              recognized by the code. &nbsp;I suggest that we address this
              problem by adding a new Note 2.2.1, worded something like
              this: &nbsp;"Art. 2.2 is not intended to imply that crown clades
              and total clades are the only clades whose names are governed
              by this code.<span style="">&nbsp;
              </span>Minimum clade definitions, maximum clade definitions,
              and apomorphy-based definitions can be used to define the
              names of clades that are neither crown nor total."</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't see the advantage of this change. If simplification is
        what is aimed at, the fact that we would need to add explanations
        would negate the effect of deleting three kinds of definitions. And
        even that explanation is only half-convincing. Paleontologists might
        think that we are accommodating their needs as an after-thought, and
        might wrongly think that their clade name/definitions combinations
        are somehow not important in PN, as implemented in the ICPN.
        Besides, the spirit of this change seems to run counter with the
        move towards a more general formulation (maximal and minimal clades,
        and earlier, branch-based rather than stem-based). There has been
        relatively little use of the ICPN so far (by comparison with the
        number of systematics papers), so do we even have a big enough
        sample to tell that most clades named and defined under the ICPN in
        the next 10 years are likely to be crown-based or total clades? And
        do we have the stats about what has been done so far? I don't.
        Personally, I would be cautious to put anything in the code that
        might discourage some potential users. It is hard enough to get our
        colleagues to use the ICPN as it is.<br>
        <blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
          type="cite">
          <div style="">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Regarding the wording of apomorphy-based clades and
              apomorphy-modified crown clade definitions, are the wordings
              you highlighted the only ones you are concerned about? </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No, I did not really highlight anything. I just inserted a note
        in the paragraph.<br>
        <blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
          type="cite">
          <div style="">
            <div>If so, I don't understand why you don't have the same
              concerns about the other wordings that use "exhibited" rather
              than synapomorphic.&nbsp; <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I do have concerns about all proposed formulations of
        apomorphy-based definitions in the proposed amendment. I would
        suggest this:<br>
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    <![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment-->" (modified parts in
        bold text).<br>
        <blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
          type="cite">
          <div style="">
            <div>As a basis for discussion, it would be helpful if you would
              send the listserv the exact wording you would like for each
              formulation of these two kinds of definitions (at least those
              formulations that you would like to change).</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; See above.<br>
        <blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
          type="cite">
          <div style="">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Best wishes,</div>
            <div>Phil</div>
            <div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Michel<br>
        <blockquote cite="mid:BD73D1B5-2422-4FEE-B49D-C3C22DCF80F0@ohio.edu"
          type="cite">
          <div style="">
            <div>
              <div>
                <div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
                <br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                    margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                    <span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>From:
                      </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                      font-size:medium">Michel Laurin &lt;<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:michel.laurin@upmc.fr">michel.laurin@upmc.fr</a>&gt;<br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                    margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                    <span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Subject:
                      </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                      font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] proposed revisions of
                        Note 9.3.1: call for a vote</b><br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                    margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                    <span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>Date:
                      </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                      font-size:medium">May 1, 2013 3:05:43 AM EDT<br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                    margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                    <span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium"><b>To:
                      </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                      font-size:medium">"<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>"
                      &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>&gt;<br>
                    </span></div>
                  <br>
                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                    <div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">Dear colleagues,<br>
                      <br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am sorry that I did not have time to look at
                      this text earlier. I have problems with the
                      formulation for apomorphy-based clades, in which
                      "synapomorphic with" was omitted of some kinds of
                      allowed definitions. This is a mistake in my opinion
                      because it leaves ambiguity; often, convergent
                      apomorphies are indistinguishable from synapomorphic
                      ones. So "synapomorphic" MUST be present in such kinds
                      of definitions.<br>
                      <br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The removal of minimal and maximal clades defined
                      based on extinct taxa is a big mistake, in my opinion.
                      These are the kinds of clades that paleontologists
                      deal with most of the time, and they may conclude
                      (with some justification) that this clade is not for
                      them.<br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thust, for now, I vote against this amendment,
                      although I am in favor of the rest of it. But I would
                      like to see these issues fixed before I approve the
                      changes.<br>
                      <br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; See the attached text for annotations showing
                      where exactly the problems are.<br>
                      <br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best wishes,<br>
                      <br>
                      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Michel<br>
                      <br>
                      On 01/05/13 00:54, Cantino, Philip wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div style="">Dear CPN members,
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>There has been little discussion of the
                          proposed revisions to Note 9.3.1, so I'm calling a
                          vote on it. &nbsp;The version I am asking you to vote
                          on is the one I sent yesterday, which incorporates
                          responses to the two points David M. raised. &nbsp;It
                          is attached again to this message. &nbsp;A simple Yes
                          (to approve) or No (to reject) is all that is
                          needed. &nbsp;Please send your vote to the listserv,
                          not to me personally.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Please try to vote by the end of the day this
                          Friday, but if that schedule is too tight for some
                          of you, let me know and I'll extend it a few days.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Thank you.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Regards,</div>
                        <div>Phil</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div style="">
                        <div><br>
                          <div><br>
                            <div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
                            <br class="x_x_Apple-interchange-newline">
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                                margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                                <span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium"><b>From: </b></span><span
                                  style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium">"Cantino, Philip" &lt;<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:cantino@ohio.edu">cantino@ohio.edu</a>&gt;<br>
                                </span></div>
                              <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                                margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                                <span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium"><b>Subject: </b></span><span
                                  style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium"><b>Re: [CPN] proposed
                                    revisions of Note 9.3.1</b><br>
                                </span></div>
                              <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                                margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                                <span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium"><b>Date: </b></span><span
                                  style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium">April 29, 2013 1:00:59
                                  PM EDT<br>
                                </span></div>
                              <div style="margin-top:0px; margin-right:0px;
                                margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px">
                                <span style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium"><b>To: </b></span><span
                                  style="font-family:'Helvetica';
                                  font-size:medium">Committee on
                                  Phylogenetic Nomenclature &lt;<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:cpn@listserv.ohio.edu">cpn@listserv.ohio.edu</a>&gt;<br>
                                </span></div>
                              <br>
                              <div>
                                <div class="x_x_BodyFragment"><font size="2">
                                    <div class="x_x_PlainText">Dear CPN
                                      members,<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Kevin and I discussed the specific
                                      suggestions made by David (copied
                                      below).&nbsp; <br>
                                      <br>
                                      1) Rather than replacing
                                      "synapomorphy" with "autapomorphy" in
                                      the wording of apomorphy-based
                                      definition, as David proposed, we
                                      think that it should be replaced with
                                      "apomorphy", and that the same change
                                      be made in the wording of the
                                      apomorphy-modified crown clade
                                      definition.&nbsp; Although David is right
                                      that an apomorphy of a clade is an
                                      autapomorphy when viewed in relation
                                      to other clades (the outgroups), it is
                                      a synapomorphy of the members of the
                                      clade being named, which is why we
                                      used the term synapomorphy.&nbsp; However,
                                      given that it can be viewed either
                                      way, the term "apomorphy" is clearer.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      2) We agree with David's suggestion
                                      that "and" be changed to "or" in the
                                      definition of a total clade in Art.
                                      2.2.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      I am attaching a new version of the
                                      proposed changes that incorporates
                                      these new modifications.&nbsp;
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                      David, thank you for your careful
                                      reading of the proposal.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Does anyone else have any comments?&nbsp;
                                      Tomorrow is the day I said I would
                                      call for a vote if there was no active
                                      discussion.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Phil<br>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </font></div>
                                <div class="x_x_BodyFragment"><font size="2">
                                    <div class="x_x_PlainText"><br>
                                      <br>
                                      <br>
                                      On Apr 25, 2013, at 5:35 PM, David
                                      Marjanovic wrote:<br>
                                      &gt; ==================<br>
                                      &gt; <br>
                                      &gt; Concrete points about the current
                                      proposal:<br>
                                      &gt; <br>
                                      &gt; I am particularly happy about the
                                      replacement of "most/least inclusive"
                                      by "largest/smallest". The former are
                                      unambigous, but sound abstract enough
                                      that -- for a long time -- they
                                      managed to confuse me anyway.<br>
                                      &gt; <br>
                                      &gt; In the proposal to change the
                                      definition of "apomorphy-based clade",
                                      replace "synapomorphy" by
                                      "autapomorphy" (twice). Hennig liked
                                      inventing terminology, and he wanted
                                      to express every possible concept in a
                                      single word made from Greek
                                      components; therefore _one_ clade has
                                      autapomorphies (auto- = "self") while
                                      _two_ sister-groups (or more in case
                                      of a hard polytomy) have
                                      synapomorphies (syn- = "together");
                                      the synapomorphies of two
                                      sister-groups are automatically
                                      autapomorphies of the smallest clade
                                      they form together, which makes the
                                      terms redundant in many cases, but
                                      still, there they are, and one clade
                                      can't have _syn_apomorphies together
                                      with just itself. -- The use of
                                      "apomorphy" in that section is
                                      correct; that term just means "derived
                                      character state" without saying
                                      derived relative to what.<br>
                                      &gt; <br>
                                      &gt; By using "and" in strategic
                                      places, the proposal to change the
                                      last point of Article 2.2 implies that
                                      total clades must contain entire
                                      species (even if they contain other
                                      organisms in addition). In turn, this
                                      implies that there cannot be clades
                                      within a species. This is correct
                                      under Hennig's species concept, but
                                      not under whatever concepts the
                                      ancestor worshippers think they use.
                                      Simply use "or" like in the proposal
                                      to change the preceding point (the one
                                      about crown clades).<br>
                                      &gt; <br>
                                      <br>
                                    </div>
                                  </font></div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div style="">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
                              CPN mailing list<br>
                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext"
                                href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <fieldset class="x_mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                      <br>
                      <pre>_______________________________________________
    CPN mailing list
    <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a>
    <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a>
    </pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
    Michel Laurin
    UMR 7207
    Mus&eacute;um National d&#8217;Histoire Naturelle
    Batiment de G&eacute;ologie        
    Case postale 48
    43 rue Buffon
    F-75231 Paris cedex 05
    FRANCE
    <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php">http://www2.mnhn.fr/hdt203/info/laurin.php</a></pre>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div style="">
            <div>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br>
                  CPN mailing list<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a><br>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a><br>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
          <br>
          <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
    CPN mailing list
    <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:CPN@listserv.ohio.edu">CPN@listserv.ohio.edu</a>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn">http://listserv.ohio.edu/mailman/listinfo/cpn</a>
    </pre>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <br>
        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
    Michel Laurin
    UMR 7207
    Mus&eacute;um National d&#8217;Histoire Naturelle
    Batiment de G&eacute;ologie        
    Case postale 48
    43 rue Buffon
    F-75231 Paris cedex 05
    FRANCE
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